robert hoekman, jr. / blog
Note: This is the old blog for rhjr.net. The new one is here.
Flash Player + Yahoo toolbar = Bad Business Decision
You know all those really lousy and/or fiscally-challenged companies that bundle 3rd-party applications with their own in an attempt to either make money or slip spyware onto your hard drive? Well, it turns out that Macromedia is trying to emulate them. If you're not careful, the Flash Player, known for its fast, painless download, could now come equipped with your own personal copy of the Yahoo toolbar.
To see it for yourself, open up Internet Explorer on a Windows machine and head to this page: http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash(Windows only).
Here's how it works: You need the Flash Player, so you head on over to the page linked to above. Once there, you are presented with a rather large "Install Now" button, which you click because you, like most people, don't have time to actually read the page. It's the Flash player - what's to know?
If you click, both the Flash player and the Yahoo toolbar install into your browser, and the next time you use IE you have to right-click on the toolbar and deselect "Yahoo Companion" to hide it. Uninstalling it is a whole different problem.
Yes, there is a way to opt-out of the Yahoo toolbar download. Next to the "Install now" button are two radio button options. The default is to get both the player and toolbar; the other installs only the Flash Player. If you happen to read these two options, you will be able to make the choice. But the default option is to get both. That radio button has been selected for you. If you don't happen to read these two options, but do happen to see the blurb about getting both the player and toolbar, you walk away. The last thing you need is an application you didn't ask for, particularly one that will present yet another row of annoying tools in your web browser. You also walk away because you've been trained that applications that come bundled with others are generally a bad thing. We've all had to wipe away spyware at one time or another.
There are many, many things wrong with the decision to allow this to happen. First, the penetration rate of the Flash Player could suffer. Second, the penetration rate of the Flash Player could suffer. Third ... well, you get the point. The Flash Player is the Golden Goose for Macromedia. Its popularity is what keeps Macromedia in business, and a whole lot of developers have jobs because of it, including myself.
Aside from the afforementioned repercussions, there are quite a few things about this that bother me.
First, presuming Macromedia had no other choice, and they simply had to bundle something with the Flash Player, why on Earth would they have chosen Yahoo when Google is clearly the master of the universe when it comes to great customer experiences? Oh, wait - I know why. It's because any browser worth its salt already has a Google search bar built into it.
Second, Macromedia has added 400kb to the Flash Player download by including with it the Yahoo toolbar (nearly doubling the total download weight compared to the Flash Player by itself), but has consistently excluded features from new Flash Player versions because they add too much weight to the player.
I could go on, but I think I've said enough.
Those of you familiar with my work know that I'm a pretty big fan of Macromedia. I'm a user group manager, the author of a book on Flash basics, contributing author for several others, author of 20+ Flash tutorials, and a willing blogger, and I wouldn't do any of this if I didn't believe Macromedia is the best thing around. But every so often, Macromedia does something that simply makes no sense. This one tops my list.
If you feel the same way I do about this decision, blog about it. Shout it from the rooftops. Send email to anyone you can find at Macromedia, and tell them. Go. Go now.
To see it for yourself, open up Internet Explorer on a Windows machine and head to this page: http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash(Windows only).
Here's how it works: You need the Flash Player, so you head on over to the page linked to above. Once there, you are presented with a rather large "Install Now" button, which you click because you, like most people, don't have time to actually read the page. It's the Flash player - what's to know?
If you click, both the Flash player and the Yahoo toolbar install into your browser, and the next time you use IE you have to right-click on the toolbar and deselect "Yahoo Companion" to hide it. Uninstalling it is a whole different problem.
Yes, there is a way to opt-out of the Yahoo toolbar download. Next to the "Install now" button are two radio button options. The default is to get both the player and toolbar; the other installs only the Flash Player. If you happen to read these two options, you will be able to make the choice. But the default option is to get both. That radio button has been selected for you. If you don't happen to read these two options, but do happen to see the blurb about getting both the player and toolbar, you walk away. The last thing you need is an application you didn't ask for, particularly one that will present yet another row of annoying tools in your web browser. You also walk away because you've been trained that applications that come bundled with others are generally a bad thing. We've all had to wipe away spyware at one time or another.
There are many, many things wrong with the decision to allow this to happen. First, the penetration rate of the Flash Player could suffer. Second, the penetration rate of the Flash Player could suffer. Third ... well, you get the point. The Flash Player is the Golden Goose for Macromedia. Its popularity is what keeps Macromedia in business, and a whole lot of developers have jobs because of it, including myself.
Aside from the afforementioned repercussions, there are quite a few things about this that bother me.
First, presuming Macromedia had no other choice, and they simply had to bundle something with the Flash Player, why on Earth would they have chosen Yahoo when Google is clearly the master of the universe when it comes to great customer experiences? Oh, wait - I know why. It's because any browser worth its salt already has a Google search bar built into it.
Second, Macromedia has added 400kb to the Flash Player download by including with it the Yahoo toolbar (nearly doubling the total download weight compared to the Flash Player by itself), but has consistently excluded features from new Flash Player versions because they add too much weight to the player.
I could go on, but I think I've said enough.
Those of you familiar with my work know that I'm a pretty big fan of Macromedia. I'm a user group manager, the author of a book on Flash basics, contributing author for several others, author of 20+ Flash tutorials, and a willing blogger, and I wouldn't do any of this if I didn't believe Macromedia is the best thing around. But every so often, Macromedia does something that simply makes no sense. This one tops my list.
If you feel the same way I do about this decision, blog about it. Shout it from the rooftops. Send email to anyone you can find at Macromedia, and tell them. Go. Go now.
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38 Comments:
erm, i didn't see anything re the yahoo toolbar on the install page. have they removed it already?
shockwave player bundled with yahoo toolbar long time ago :(
The link gets cut off in firefox. If you only get the first part of it you'll see the shockwave player download instead of the flash player download.
The missing part is
...Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash(Windows only).
This is really really depressing.
What an absolutely TERRIBLE decision. I hope Yahoo paid about a hundred million dollars for this because it starts to erode my confidence in the flash player as a platform.
Now every time I tell a teacher how to install the flash player I have to worry that if he or she chooses the wrong option I could get an angry call from a system administrator.
Why did the compaqs and the hp's suck? Because they tried to use their platform as a marketing tool. Why was Dell good at that point in time? Because they didn't. Why does Dell suck now, because they see their computers as a marketing tool and bundle crap onto it.
When did windows start to suck, when it stoped seeing itself as an operating system vendor and started seeing it's operating system as just a marketing tool.
When you start using your platform as a marketing tool you erode peoples trust in it. Period.
The reason the Flash player is successful is that it is simple and people trust it.
This is unlike the Realplayer, Quicktime and the four thousand other plug-ins and downloads that have traditionally done this kind of thing.
Folk are wary of anything like this from experience.
"Oh... hey! We have a sucker willing to install something? Here how about installing this too then! Smile smile, wink wink, encouraging grin."
That's how people see something like this and it rightfully makes them afraid.
Thanks for bringing this to the attention of bloggers, Robert. At least two others have already picked up the ball to run with it, too:
http://www.turdhead.com/index.php?p=50
http://www.razorberry.com/blog/archives/2005/03/01/pimp-yo-browser/
Thanks for the support, guys. Spread the word - we need to make sure MM knows this is a bad idea.
Did you look at the license agreement?? It's in a 4 line by 50 character text input box, but if cut & pasted into a word processor, it would be over 5 pages long, and not only that, but they removed all line breaks!
This really sets off the spyware alarm bells in my head. Macromedia has made a great mistake here.
I was so annoyed when I saw that little opt out option at the bottom of installation screen, Could it get worse than this? Such a bad marketing trick...
Correction: The Yahoo toolbar does, in fact, install automatically if you choose the default "Install Now" option.
That's even worse than I thought it was.
Howdy, sorry for the delay (travel & timelag)... the people who see that Yahoo offer are actually only the minority who fulfill these 3 conditions:
(1) Use IE/Win as a browser
(2) Actually click that "GetFlash" link instead of the normal IE/Win ActiveX auto-install
(3) Don't already have Yahoo Toolbar installed.
There's a FAQ with source info on the Macromedia site... web search term "site:macromedia.com yahoo toolbar" should bring you right to this and similar materials.
This is all a new program, though, and things are still shifting in response to feedback... I'm a little out-of-loop on details today, but please give it a bit, and if something doesn't sit well with you, or if there's an unanswered question, then please bring it up and I'll work towards getting it addressed, thanks.
Regards,
John Dowdell
Macromedia Support
Thanks for the info, John - I always appreciate knowing that Macromedia is listening - but I'm afraid it doesn't really quash my frustrations. I knew already that it only affects users that meet the criteria you described.
My big concern is not so much the scope of the audience being targeted with this, but rather the fear of what is to come. The fact that this could happen at all is a sign that Macromedia is putting short-term dollars before long-term stability. It's a shame that such a revolutionary company couldn't be more wise.
As you can see, a lot of people are against this decision. Macromedia needs to stop ignoring the feedback and fix the problem.
"My big concern is not so much the scope of the audience being targeted with this, but rather the fear of what is to come."Thanks, Robert... knowing that this is the key area is a big help. Could you help me refine it a little further, please?
Assuming the Yahoo deal in itself hasn't yet raised any specific red flags, could you list me a few hypothetical situations which would raise specific problems for you? Maybe a clear "worst case", just to get that out of the way, and then a few more subtle edge situations where it could have an effect on your work. (Hypothetical examples: Player adoption rate slows; you get a new client who competes with Yahoo; Player download page results in fewer actual installations; etc.) For "future fears", it's easier for me to get a point across with specific scenarios you wouldn't want to see, thanks.
jd/mm
Actually, you nailed it in your reply. "Player adoption rate slows; you get a new client who competes with Yahoo; Player download page results in fewer actual installations; etc."
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Topping off that list, I'd add things like:
1) I get calls from clients wondering how to get rid of the Yahoo toolbar (or whatever else MM has decided to bundle with the player in a year), and I'm stuck offering support for it.
2) Absolute worst-case: people stop installing the Flash player all together because they're afraid of spyware and tired of uninstalling all the proverbial toolbars of the world, and I have to bone up on CSS and JavaScript so I can find a new job. I realize this is highly unlikely, but hey, you're tapping into primal fears here. You mess with the Flash player install, you mess with my job.
Thanks for listening, John. It's great that you're out here listening to the grapevine.
Understood, thanks. Further notes on varied angles:
Player adoption rates: All agree this is a key advantage and must be protected. The company unfortunately doesn't publish daily download stats (still not sure why), but I do know that execs now receive a daily summary of Player encounters & downloads across the various environments, along with the Yahoo acceptance rates, and are specifically looking for any evidence that the offer harms Player adoption. (I heard, in internal conversation, that download rates actually went up, but that statement was incomplete in not including a timeframe, measurement metric, or suggested hypotheses towards explaining such a counter-intuitive observation.)
Summary: Adoption rates must not be affected, and I'm personally confident that this is being monitored effectively.
Client competes with Yahoo: I brought this up internally earlier, but I don't think that the hypothetical got much traction. If there are any realworld situations where this actually happens then these would need to be exposed and escalated ASAP.
Client support costs increase: I understand that offering extra, non-contractual services to a client can make good business sense. For Yahoo Toolbar, I believe they should have uninstall instructions or link in the FAQ, searchable with "site:macromedia.com yahoo toolbar uninstall" (hmm, not linked at Google now... I know FAQs are changing, but this is definitely a "frequent question" and should eventually be in there... is up at Yahoo today, regardless.) If you're looking to reduce support costs overall, then browser tips might help too...?
Listening: I'm just the front guy with the big yap... check your visitor and referrer logs this week.... ;-)
jd/mm
John,
Here's another scenario for you:
The technicians and administrators working in the IT departments of companies get enough complaints about the yahoo toolbar to block/remove the flash player from their users' computers. Most users naturally ask the IT technicians/admins about their *personal* computer issues, and the minute that the technician recommends not installing flash player because of bundling issues, you will have home users removing/not installing the new flash player, which in turn, causes more java/css/svg/etc. proliferation, which of course cuts even more into the flash player base...
Not sure if the "client competes" scenario is the same as this but wouldn't there be a similar possibility that if the owners of sites hosting the flash files competed with Yahoo, they would move to an alternative. As an example, would AOL, MSN etc want to promote Flash if the standard download installed a rival "portal's" (for want of a better word) toolbar within their vistors' browser?
There is a big disadvantage that hasn't been mentioned: the publishing companies. I work for a locally leading publishing company and we are considering an (almost) all-flash site.
But our user experience should be flawless. We already have made too much mistakes by adopting technologies that in the end annoyed our users. (Like RealPlayer, where the free player was very hard to find. Because of that, we have chosen not to support Real anymore)A default Flash-version combined with Yahoo will annoy our users. This WILL affect our decisions to use flash more extensively. And this will have impact on our use (and payment) of the Flash communication server.
My development team was about to make the case to our execs that we should switch to an all flash web interface (flex or laszlo). This yahoo toolbar decision has put the brakes on that for sure. I'd look like a dunce arguing the company should commit itself to a platform that is now essentially bundled with spyware.
This ranks up there with new coke.
this sucks, but then on my home machine my firefox install hasn't got the flash player installed. I find that most of the time its needed purely for annoying ads, and if a site INSISTS on me installing a 3rd party tool to view their site I don't bother.
I don't think MM seems to be getting what this does to the perception of Flash as a tool and MM as a company with the current and potential developer community.
I work for a large company that was considering releasing a Flash based interface to our product. Not only have we decided aganist offering this, we can now hammer any of our compeditors that use Flash by telling potential customers that Flash is a vehicle for spyware and third party marketing.
With this one move Macromedia has put their loyal developer base at a severe disadvantage head to head with any non-Flash based compeditive product.
Terrible, terrible move especially at a time when companies like Google are really pusing the envelope of what can be done in HTML/XML/Javascript (Google Maps).
I used to work for Hallmark.com. One day I noticed that I was getting a cookie for yahoo.com when I visited our homepage. Since I was a developer, I KNEW that we didn't send a cookie to Yahoo. After some digging I discovered that when I removed the Yahoo! toolbar, that cookie went away! Yahoo! was tracking where I went on the net from their plugin. I don't know that they are still doing this (this was two years ago) but I do know that this was unethical behavior and clearly SPYWARE. Macromedia: you guys are FOOLS for hooking up with Yahoo. I wonder if I can find a solution using DHTML...
John -
If you need evidence, consider this thread. You've got Flash developers telling you, in no uncertain terms, that they think this is a horrible idea. These people teach classes, work on contract for all kinds of clients, and have full-time jobs for major companies. They have influence over the adoption rate of the Flash Player. If this thread is any indication of a trend, MM is alienating its core fan base. That's a bad idea.
Beyond that, I'll do some research and compile whatever facts I can find that support the case against bundling and get back to you (likely via a new blog post). I started this thread - I'll commit to fighting it out.
For now, I leave you with this fact: I, as a professional Flash developer for a major e-learning company, author, and contractor, have been forced into a position where I do not feel comfortable advising people to install the Flash Player.
And that, my friend, is not cool.
i can confirm what one anonymous poster said. our company (xp java shop) has been looking into flex and laszlo (cio favors felx) for delivering portions of our service to our clients (currently 200 but growing at 50 a month). this would mean requiring Flash player on the client machine to use this functionality. If they have to, or the default is to install ANYTHING else in addition to Flash player, this project is dead in the water as our CEO will, rightfully, balk at the prospect. This means we will not be buying Flex or any other flash development tools from macromedia. i have already forwarded the Slashdot article to our CIO.
Large companies aside, (on a much more personal level) I would be loathe to download a bundle. Granted I am a touch biased against Yahoo, with my loyalty lying with Google, but regardless I would not be happy even being given the option to add the toolbar. I'm practically insulted that it is there as the default option, there is no need for that surely.
I'm a relatively small time developer, with my entire site base made in flash. Were I not more wise I would already have Yahoo Toolbar installed, and I know that many of the viewers of my site will not be so careful in their installations. This means that there are people getting the toolbar without understanding why or how. I find that irratating to say the least.
So it is not just the large companies who would cease to use Flash, but also the individuals. Flash is too good a medium to be allowed to do this. Heck, I spent too long learning how to code it for it to dissappear. I'm not old enough to know a dwindling language.
mad
Yessir. I'd shout about this if I had a blog, but since I don't I'll shout on yours!
I recently re-downloaded the flash player, and until now, i've never had a problem with macromedia slipping in, or even trying to push another product on me, so I didn't do anything different while going about my install.
Wha'? suddenly I had a 'yahoo companion' toolbar installed in IE6 and didn't even know why. i had to dig, and try to figure out where I picked it up, causing me to wonder if I'd had some kind of malware compromise.
I'm very irritated with macromedia, and this incident has certainly jarred what confidence I had in them.
I am one dis-satisfied customer. Being a designer myself, who also dabbles with flash and am considering working more with flash, I can tell you that if macromedia keeps this up, I'll be a lot less likely to keep going that route.
Thank you! It was bugging the you know what out of me when suddenly Yahoo toolbar showed up. I knew I didn't ask for it. Spent hours on the net (compulsive) to get rid of it. Of course nothing labled Yahoo showed up. If I uninstall MM will Yahoo go away? Thanks for the info. Sign that petition.
Worse than this Yahoo! nonsense, IMO, is that Flash downloads and installs itself through lax ActiveX controls. This leaves people who want to live Flash free the option of either upgrading browsers or disabling ActiveX for most all sites.
I wish I would have known the true extent of MM's unstoppable greed before I decided to spend good money upgrading to Flash 8. Nothing to say here that hasn't already been said. Their website FAQs simply offer lame justifications of this appaling decision, rather than practical solutions for developers who want to offer cross-browser support for MM products without 'encouraging' end users to install buggy, spyware-ridden toolbars. Add to this the disruption caused to the continuity of a site by forcing users through click-throughs, lengthy downloads and computer restarts and, for me, Flash becomes pointless and unuseable. MM should be very wary of upsetting developers, and this decision is corporate suicide. I can only ask, does any one know of a contact email or address for MM HQ so that I can unleash my fury?
Depressed,
J
Try this url. It bypasses the advert page and install's flash without 'Yahoo Toolbar'
http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/flash.html
I'm calling this the "one click flash".
This has been an annoying issue to deal with - the one click Flash seems so be working for now - but let's not get to the point of Firefox where there is no option to download it without the google toolbar ...
The bundling sucks, because I myself thought I got the annoying toolbar from a site I visited. So for a while, I blamed them for installing crap on my computer.
As I have installed the flash player many times before, I only clicked "Install" without reading the fineprint. That was my mistake...
The Yahoo! toolbar actually blocked popups to a very important, business related site. Causing an urgent help request, and delays in getting real work done. That's where I draw the line.
Users won't pay attention, they will click, install, and forget quite often.
I have no choice to ban Shockware sites, as they have become less important that real work sites we NEED to visit. Even if MM removes the Yahoo! toolbar bundling now, the damage is done. After a looooong time of seeing no more Yahoo! toolbars, I may elect to allow Shockwave again. Until then, MM is boycotted.
i like making flash, and use Macromedia Flash Player as my flash player
I am in full agreement with all the negative comments in this blog regarding the Yahoo/MM toolbar scam after having fallen victem to it. However, I am not a MM pro, just a end user. So is it to much to ask that someone, preferrably the John guy with MM, specificly detail the process on how to get absolutely gid rid of the toolbar and its spyware & drivers even if this means getting rid of latest MM flash player also! At least a person could then have a chance at chosing with full knowledge what they are downloading.
One of the worst things about bundling is that there are so many helpless, clueless users out there who probably won't even notice that it's there, or will think it's just part of Windows, because they don't know better. These nasty little bloatware programs continue to encroach on people's systems, loading them up, slowing them down, and causing interesting problems for no reason at all. For example: The Yahoo toolbar has a nifty little popup stopper! Ooo! Good, right?
Wrong.
I had a customer spend a good amount of time on the phone with me asking why he couldn't download a file, and I could find no reason for it. Then when I drove the thirty miles to his business, it took me another 10 minutes to figure out that the 'helpful' little toolbar that he hadn't intentionally put in his computer was the culprit. The only clue was a little 'ding' whenever you tried to download the file, and the Popup Blocker helpfully killed the download window.
People would not only have faster systems and less problems if bundling weren't so rampant, but it would also be easier to troubleshoot issues they're having, because it doesn't make techs like me slog through the morass of programs running in the background, and ask the customer if they actually meant to have them installed or not. (to which they normally reply "I don't know..." or "What's that?") Frustrating, isn't it?
Quick Flash Player is a stand-alone flash player that enables Flash Users to quickly browse the SWF files.
Hi, How can I get the latest Flash Player WITHOUT the dopey Yahoo toolbar? Seems almost impossible??
I agree this is just downright annoying that they try to sneak this crap in on you. It turns flash into some kind of hokey adaware pusher. It just makes you loose respect for flash and pisses people off. It's like Realplayer was or still is. It tried to always sneak on your computer when you didnt want it there.
Here is the latest news regarding this rather annoying decition to bundle the yahoo toolbar up with the Flash player.I NEED the flashplayer but I am UNABLE do download on my PC if I choose NOT not include the toolbar..!!!.I have tried over and over again,it just DON*t dowload if I want the flash player only...If I choose both,then I get it...regards rune,Bergen,Norway
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